Alternative take: education makes you a lot more efficient at exploiting people.
It is not education that is at the root of these things, but incentives. If the incentives are all wrong, so will be the outcomes. Take education as an institution. The way it is set up incentivizes cheating, and so nearly everyone tries to cheat.
To me it's a good replacement for search engines. I ask it things like 'If redshifting destroys energy ala Noether, than how can we say that time is reversible or that entropy will find an equilibrium?' and it will not only explain, but make nice interactive diagram/toys to help. A regular search engine would have taken me hours to find an answer.
However, if I want it to DO something then Gemini is in absolute last place. I don't trust it for anything more than renaming files that I don't care about very much or extracting data (though it's too expensive for data extraction at scale).
This is commonly why, on Reddit in particular, you can get eaten alive.
Someone confident but incorrect, can often sound more convincing than someone with actual expertise. The expert must add caveats/hedge, because those are the facts on the ground, whereas the person reciting google can be entirely confident.
Of course the people judging aren't experts, so they side with confidence and simplicity. Heck, just writing shorter replies on Reddit is rewarded. Nobody reads the articles, let alone a paragraph-long reply.
That all being said though, there are limits. Sometimes LLMs on high-thinking go off on full tangents based on little, and don't have the self-awareness to bring it back.
I consider, on the contrary, caveating and hedging annoying 'typical redditor'/internet behaviors: they care more about being "technically correct" than conveying the message. On the internet, if you make even the tiniest mistake or simplification, someone will criticize you, so you're trained to always hedge. In normal discussions with friends you can just make general statements and people get what you mean.
You aren't arguing a "contrary" to what I actually wrote above. You're arguing with a strawman Redditor, and a point adjacent to what I was posting about - experts responding to topics within their actual realm of expertise.
So I won't be addressing this, for those reasons and others.
My experience has been very much the opposite of yours.
To an expert communicating with a layperson is a form of compression. You must turn some very complex idea into one that you suppose the other person can grasp given their limited frame of reference. It's always lossy, and you have to guess how much you can remove without sounding patronizing or being inaccurate. It's tough, and the more you know the tougher it gets.
Ever done that "explain what happens when I visit Google in my web browser" interview question?
A sales guy will answer in a sentence. An engineer might be able to talk about it for several days and still not be sure they didn't miss anything important. That much knowledge can actually be detrimental to communication.
Nobody needs social media of any sort. Everyone should just turn it off and stop making excuses for yourselves to stay addicted. That said, it's easier said than done. Trust me, I know.
I'm not sure I would class Youtube as social media. It can be, but some people just watch it on their TV's and never engage in a social way at all.
We do, just not social media for the sake of extracting maximum ad revenue out of users. We're a widespread society we need large online spaces, but not ones algorithmically designed to addict and derrange users.
I'm really just here because Google is shit and there are only so many alternative ways to find an aggregation of links to potentially interesting tech articles. I'm hoping to find new blogs or sites to follow, in part so I can stop coming here.
I might give up on it soon though, like I've given up on reddit. Too many junk article lately.
As for my commenting, that's because I, like everyone else here, am a bit of an idiot. HN makes it easy enough to comment that it's hard to resist sometimes.
> Does our collective thinking get stuck at the level of an emo high-schooler?
Our society has come to equate contrarian thought with independent thought, but the aren't the same thing. Worse we've simultaneously stopped training young minds to think properly.
Telling someone to think for themselves without first teaching them HOW to do that, doesn't just halt progress it puts it into retreat.
We need to start teaching young people to trust those who know more than they do, and how to tell who those people are. Further, we should teach them how to reason before we admonish them to do it for themselves.
Until we manage those two things we will be a society that distrusts everything we can't understand, and understands very little.
I tried too. It got it. Maybe more importantly, who cares?
For example, I'm a nerd. I'm bad at baseball. I lack that kind of intelligence, even though it's more common than the ability to program. That doesn't also imply that you can't trust my Python code.
> We need to insist on building tech that's explainable by design.
You realize this means insisting on terrible tech that humans can understand right? It essentially caps human progress at some point about 4 years ago.
If you are old and happy with the way things are this might sound like a good idea. It does not to me.
Oh you want tech that helps discover new science instead of parroting existing wisdom?
There is little evidence that the RSI we are discussing is capable of inventing the theory of relativity (or the more advanced equivalent). All we have seen is pattern matching in a much larger space than humans can, with some human provided verification tech.
I would argue that human-AI collaboration with explainable tech has a better chance. Continuous learning can be done in a way that doesn't violate IP or privacy.
All I'm saying is: if you have a choice between two systems with equal power of discovery and one is more understandable than the other, we choose the more understandable one.
Limits of Human comprehension and quest for power are two different motivations that could lead to black box systems that are marketed as semi-explainable.
We need to verify that human comprehension is actually limiting progress before allowing such things and even when we do, do it responsibly on an explainable foundation.
Agreed. I would vote for the "when there is a choice" version of your argument.
I'm not sure it is always possible to verify when human comprehension is the limit though. Most of research is done an the frontier of knowledge where we don't know what we don't know.
There would need to be a great deal of nuance in any law, and nuance in practical terms tend to just mean "loophole." Still, you're right that we should try to build explainable systems where it is possible/reasonable to do so first.
> The problem is that you're not offered a choice. No one is making the "err towards explainability" choice.
I'm not sure that's entirely fair. OpenAI recently discussed this at length in a blog post after some accusations around Astra and the trade-offs. The grown-ups are definitely thinking about it, and making tough choices about the trade-offs.
It's reasonable to debate whether ENOUGH is being done here, and I doubt that even the most rabid AI advocate would argue that more couldn't be done, but everyone in the industry is very much actively thinking about it.
They discuss recent choices they made specifically for that reason.
> The ones who do discuss these ideas are confrontational about LLMs and not effective spokespeople.
Very much this. I'm very open to reasonable debate on the subject, but 8/10 times when I try someone who is rabidly pro/anti jumps in. It turns from a debate amongst reasonable people who reasonably disagree into some kind of political/religious battle of belief systems.
I think part of my problem is that a lot of peoples careers very much depend on them not understanding it and spreading misinformation intentionally.
Ahh yes I remember the bad old days of 4 years ago when everyone decided human progress had enough, and we would have been stuck there forever if it hadn't been for LLMs ... we didn't know how good we had it
Technically, they could do a whole bunch of things, including doing multihop routing via other connected televisions or insecure WiFi networks. There's no evidence that they do this, as far as I know, but also no reason why they couldn't do this in the future if they wanted to.
I gloss over it because it's an argument that makes no sense to me.
Copyright exists to encourage progress in the arts and sciences. Not to enrich artists or scientists.
Ai is progress. Further, the works it creates are fully transformative. It isn't just spitting out Harry Potter verbatim, it's making new things from it.
To me, this argument is like staying that if you read Winnie The Pooh as a child then Milne owns your artistic output for life, because one of your many influences might have been his work. It just seems obvious at face value.
The frequency with which AI boosters leap to "clearly once you've read a book the author owns everything that comes out of your brain" still shocks me a little bit. It's obviously not the same as somebody torrenting books2 or libgen or whatever and training on it for profit.
I see no argument here. Just a note that it seems to be obvious to you. It must not be as obvious to me, or millions of others or we wouldn't be on the opposite side of it.
>Copyright exists to encourage progress in the arts and sciences. Not to enrich artists or scientists.
Is impoverishing them supposed to encourage progress in the arts and sciences?
Whatever it started out as (and I have my doubts it was ever a tool to help artists), it's now primarily a tool corporations use to milk creativity for profit and squash it where it might interfere with that profit.
> Is impoverishing them supposed to encourage progress in the arts and sciences?
No, but that needs new laws. Not an abuse of the old ones justified under the thinnest of pretenses.
I don't think that folks stop to consider what bending copyright law into these weird shapes to meet their ends will do to other aspects of copyright.
For example, sampling in music. How is that different from AI generated music? If anything AI uses LESS of any individual song. You can't just say "no derivative works." That would fully halt progress on many fronts.
Sampling in music is long settled in the US - it is a copyright violation if not licensed, with the rare exception being cases where the sample is fair use:
If a song was made purely of samples with no original input I'd argue it's in the same category.
Maybe AI uses less of any individual song, but does AI make something actually original and transformative or is it just bits and pieces of all the things it learnt on (in simplified terms)? I think that's where the discussion lies.
Entirely new works are often created entirely from samples, and can be amazing. See "Frontier Psychiatrist" by The Avalanches for one example done entirely by humans. There are many others.
Amazing or not, that is not the discussion. LLM output can look amazing as well but that's not what I'm arguing about.
Also with LLM's we'll reach a point when everything is made out of samples (metaphorically speaking), where do we fit original content then, or who will make it if it means it's going to be consumed by data centers immediately.
> Also with LLM's we'll reach a point when everything is made out of samples
We reached that point with humans long ago. There's nothing new under the sun. Only remixes of dead peoples greatest hits. The pentatonic scale, for example, was not invented by the people who use it.
Science and art would have to start over from scratch if you expect things to all be genuinely new from first principles.
> who will make it if it means it's going to be consumed by data centers immediately
people who enjoy making it won't be able to afford to do it, alternatively only rich people will have means to do so. So I guess thats progress in some eyes
> people who enjoy making it won't be able to afford to do it
The demand for paintings did not disappear when photography was invented. Though many Luddites claimed it would. There were even those who wanted cameras outlawed to protect the artists livelihoods. Do you think we should have listened to those people?
How is it progress if it stops people from sharing. It just reduces everything to the lowest common denominator.
Or how is it progress if the data centers just eat up all the components skyrocketing the prices for regular people.
"The Congress shall have Power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."
It's about promoting science and art, not "paying authors". Paying authors is of course the mechanism by which art is promoted.
That clause is the basis for both copyright and patents.
Note that not all Arts are "useful" and not all Arts are "Writings".
Most art is not intended to be an open-ended product to be further collaborated upon and extended in order to drive progress.
Protections are purely so that the creators can get paid in some shape. There is still art if they don't get paid.
Copyright somewhat stifles that activity in art which consists of imitation; imitate too closely and you invite accusations of infringement.
A work of art being copyrighted is not what motivates and encourages activity revolving around copying that work's style. That's what it would mean for the work to promote Art as such: the work gets studied and it style becomes part of the artistic vocabulary. This will happen copyright or not; the only difference is the conditions for compensation.
> Protections are purely so that the creators can get paid in some shape.
That's not what the founding fathers said, and it's not what they wanted.
Madison thought that the two things were really the same saying:
"The utility of this power will scarcely be questioned. The copyright of authors has been solemnly adjudged, in Great Britain, to be a right of common law. The right to useful inventions seems with equal reason to belong to the inventors. The public good fully coincides in both cases with the claims of individuals. The States cannot separately make effectual provision for either of the cases..."
— Federalist No. 43 (1788)
Whereas Jefferson, who not only helped draft the consititution, but was the first patent examiner, was deeply suspicious of them and wanted a restriction on length directly spelled out at length in the constitution itself.
"I like it [the Constitution], as far as it goes; but I should have been for going further. For instance, the following alterations and additions would have pleased me... Article 9. Monopolies may be allowed to persons for their own productions in literature, and their own inventions in the arts, for a term not exceeding — years, but for no longer term, and for no other purpose."
— Letter to James Madison (August 1789)
They all agreed that the purpose was progress for everyone, not one mans enrichment. They disagreed a bit about how best to accomplish that.
That it’s illegal for employees to use copyrighted work that they dont have permission to use to build a product seems much more obvious at face value than comparing an llm to a human artist.
I feel like the animated version filled in gaps I hadn't even realized were there in the old one that just had the voice overs.
If you like classic who, Adams, or both, and haven't seen it buy the blu-ray!
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