> There's no reason why they can't be using a real IDE (e.g. Eclipse, or whatever you like), learning Java in a terminal, and learn to write real GUIs (e.g. Swing, or whatever you like).
BlueJ is incompatible with Chromebooks, unfortunately.
> Some high school students are a few years away from working, coding, in industry --- why not learn real IDEs if it's available?
Very true, unfortunately BlueJ is mandated by Advanced Placement and the tests are on paper (!) but I always prefer a full IDE.
>But if students have a non-locked-down OS, seems to me learning the real deal is better for the student. It's not just the IDE and coding in it. It's the entire ecosystem students get to be exposed to. Get stuck on something, jump in the command line. Learn git in bash. Play with maven. It's a rich, real, authentic environment to learn in. Stuck in the browser means only getting what the web site provides.
Unfortunately, the trend is becoming online. I hope the teachers explain that these tools are good for learning but never outside of a learning environment. It's like scratch: you'd never teach it to actual CS students but for feeling out an interest in CS it's pretty good.
>If a student comes and says they have trouble installing Java in Windows, it's easier to just say... go to ReplIt.
If an AP CSA student can't install Java... that doesn't bode well for their general computing knowledge. Then again AP CSA isn't super high level. We just learned about `extends` sub/superclasses in java, and we're pretty far into the course.
>As coding education becomes more widespread, like math before it, more and more classes will be taught by teachers who are not experts in coding, possibly not even by a hobbyist coder, maybe not even by someone who likes code. It'll be taught by an English / math/ bio / P.E. teacher who needs a class to round out their 1.0 FTE.
Agree. My AP CSA teacher is very qualified but I've seen that trend in plenty of other lower-level computing classes in MS and HS like "computer applications" class and "cybersec fundamentals".
>tldr. If students have a non-locked-down OS, seems to me learning the real deal is better for the student. But due to everything getting locked down, economic reasons, and teachers/people/technicians being just too busy, the trend in primary/secondary CS education will be towards more web based platforms... because it's better for the teachers/administrators/I.T./wallet.
Sigh, I just hope this doesn't affect the education negatively like it sounds like it will...
Where did you see that? It's not mandated. My AP students use Netbeans or Eclipse or IDEA (their choice). I have an AP approved syllabus that I wrote myself based on the College Board AP course and exam description. If you use the Blue Pellican Java textbook, I recall it teaches BlueJ. But other approved textbooks don't.
> If an AP CSA student can't install Java... that doesn't bode well for their general computing knowledge
Well, if they use Replit, they'd never know they didn't know! And they'd never get a chance to learn to troubleshoot. They'd never learn general computing knowledge. But that's part of my "ecosystem" point.
> Sigh, I just hope this doesn't affect the education negatively like it sounds like it will...
I think you and I are on the same wavelength here. I don't know if education will be affected negatively, but it'll be more "specialized". Students 10 years ago at my school learned Linux, MongoDB (why not? lol), Java, Eclipse, bash, git, etc. Because of some of the things I noted, they now learn... Java in Eclipse. 10 years from now, they'll learn... to code in Replit.
Maybe that's just how it goes. 100 years ago, math students learned to make paper and ink (did they? was that 500 years ago? I don't know). Now they learn math. 100 years from now, they learn math code in coq on Replit (lol).
My AP teacher mandates the use of BlueJ, I was under the impression it was AP. I asked if I could use another full IDE because the keybinds in BlueJ suck, he said no because the Intellisense/other smart features may make it easier and I won't be able to use it on the exam. Which is sort of fair I suppose.
>Well, if they use Replit, they'd never know they didn't know! And they'd never get a chance to learn to troubleshoot. They'd never learn general computing knowledge. But that's part of my "ecosystem" point.
Very true.
> Students 10 years ago at my school learned Linux, MongoDB (why not? lol), Java, Eclipse, bash, git, etc
That makes me glad that I'm learning with good tools. I hope the trend doesn't continue to fully learning college courses in a browser. :/
Then again, I'm literally in high school hating on the new-fangled tools...
> he said no because the Intellisense/other smart features may make it easier and I won't be able to use it on the exam. Which is sort of fair I suppose.
The exam's done wrong. Intellisense mostly gives you navigation in a big project (shouldn't need that in a written test) and method name auto-complete.
Remembering it's ToString() and not tostring() or PrintAsString() is pointless. What matters is computational thinking.
> I hope the trend doesn't continue to fully learning college courses in a browser. :/
Some colleges will, for sure. Probably not the good ones.
> Then again, I'm literally in high school hating on the new-fangled tools...
BlueJ is incompatible with Chromebooks, unfortunately.
> Some high school students are a few years away from working, coding, in industry --- why not learn real IDEs if it's available?
Very true, unfortunately BlueJ is mandated by Advanced Placement and the tests are on paper (!) but I always prefer a full IDE.
>But if students have a non-locked-down OS, seems to me learning the real deal is better for the student. It's not just the IDE and coding in it. It's the entire ecosystem students get to be exposed to. Get stuck on something, jump in the command line. Learn git in bash. Play with maven. It's a rich, real, authentic environment to learn in. Stuck in the browser means only getting what the web site provides.
Unfortunately, the trend is becoming online. I hope the teachers explain that these tools are good for learning but never outside of a learning environment. It's like scratch: you'd never teach it to actual CS students but for feeling out an interest in CS it's pretty good.
>If a student comes and says they have trouble installing Java in Windows, it's easier to just say... go to ReplIt.
If an AP CSA student can't install Java... that doesn't bode well for their general computing knowledge. Then again AP CSA isn't super high level. We just learned about `extends` sub/superclasses in java, and we're pretty far into the course.
>As coding education becomes more widespread, like math before it, more and more classes will be taught by teachers who are not experts in coding, possibly not even by a hobbyist coder, maybe not even by someone who likes code. It'll be taught by an English / math/ bio / P.E. teacher who needs a class to round out their 1.0 FTE.
Agree. My AP CSA teacher is very qualified but I've seen that trend in plenty of other lower-level computing classes in MS and HS like "computer applications" class and "cybersec fundamentals".
>tldr. If students have a non-locked-down OS, seems to me learning the real deal is better for the student. But due to everything getting locked down, economic reasons, and teachers/people/technicians being just too busy, the trend in primary/secondary CS education will be towards more web based platforms... because it's better for the teachers/administrators/I.T./wallet.
Sigh, I just hope this doesn't affect the education negatively like it sounds like it will...