That's the problem with these dialogues. Often left-leaning types see them as justification for censorship and shaming when the real issue is market penetration and audience.
I can walk my son through the girly section of 'toys r us' and see nothing but men represented as effeminate "prince" types who's only main motivation in life is finding a princess. The tumbler social justice warriors don't care about that, being mostly female, it doesn't affect them and they probably don't even notice. That doesn't mean we need more manly men in that section, it just means that certain audiences want certain things. Gender is an audience. Its weird that we pretend gender doesn't exist and how it affects us and our fiction consuming habits.
>We need more articles like this helping people realize what a "normal" comic shop could look like.
Its probably a little too late for that. The shops are folding due to digital distribution and they've somehow become even more manboy friendly as the hardcore and die-hards dictate demand. This is like saying that there aren't enough gay-friendly adult bookstores in your town. Um, sure, but the gays are just using the web like normal people. Or that the vinyl record store only has hipster stuff and not the new Kanye. Normal people are using itunes and google play.
If anything, the retail experience for things that can be gotten online easier is going to be skewed to a weird demographic. The great thing is that online and digital distribution lowers the barrier to entry and even with these low barriers, feminist comics are low on the demand side. Turns out a lot of girls just don't give a shit what activists tell them to do, which I think is wonderful. Girls can buy the girliest visual novel on steam then load up the most macho FPS game afterwards. Let them choose. Hand wringing and guilt trips are totally optional.
That's the problem with these dialogues. Often right-leaning types see them as ways to avoid having to take any responsibility or action for anything by claiming the real issues are things that are the neutral mechanics of an impersonal market.
I think parent and grandparent posts both have somewhat valid if overstated points, but have improperly used "left-wing" and "right-wing" in place of "pro-censorship" and "anti-censorship".
Pro-censorship arguments can come from the right (and often do), and anti-censorship arguments in favor or personal choice driving availability can come from the left (and often do.)
Usually, there's slightly different subject matter that left- and right-wing pro-censorship folks target, though sexualized images of women tend to be targeted by both, though with different rationales.
I think that making it about 'censorship' immediately betrays a kind of knee-jerk status quo defending.
There are some folks who would want to see censorship of this kind of material, I'm sure. But I've not met them. And it certainly isn't what the vast, vast majority of feminists and social justice campaigners are interested in.
I don't want censorship for anything. I think people should be perfectly entitled to produce comics with toxic representations of blacks, Jews, Christians, LGBT+ folks, whoever. But I want to agitate and educate for a culture in which such representations are rightly considered unpleasant and unwelcome to most people. I want to change the culture so that those kind of facile objectifications are seen for what they are, and where most people reject them accordingly.
The idea that this is about censorship, is a strawman, as far as I can see. Remember Voltaire.
Unfortunately, it is common for some people to confuse organisation against something with censorship of it.
Except we've had a history of censorship and its been historically horrible. This is just a new Comics Code Authority Code. So yeah, we tried the liberal censorship (protect the $minority, $gender, $children) approach and its a massive failure because TOP DOWN CONTROL OF CULTURE IS HARMFUL.
Instead lower barriers, give people choice, don't guilt them, open markets, etc. Let speech and art flourish. Political correctness is the opposite of this.
Your over-reliance on political straw men ("left-leaning types," "social justice warriors," "liberal censorship") might turn people off to your actual ideas.
Wow, I'm not sure who you're responding to. I was remarking on the diversionary tactic of using impersonal markets to avoid taking responsibility. Perhaps I hit a nerve.
Generally, they talk about how its affects girls. My point is that flip-side (effeminate princes) is not a major social issue to them, the same way comic shops marketed and targeted to boys aren't a major issue to boys.
Now the "tough girl" trope is in full effect in fiction. If you portray a feminine girl in YA story you're going to deal with massive protests. We're going to look back at this period and wonder why we thought the Katnis Everdeening of all thing was a good idea and why we no longer have realistic girl characters. Unless they know kung-fu and are tough as nails they don't get published. This doesn't reflect real world girls at all.
"""Generally, they talk about how its affects girls. My point is that flip-side (effeminate princes) is not a major social issue to them, the same way comic shops marketed and targeted to boys aren't a major issue to boys."""
Right. In fact the only people I see talking about this are feminists (SJWs if you like). The only time it comes up in MRA arguments is as this kind of attempt to find a defeater.
I can walk my son through the girly section of 'toys r us' and see nothing but men represented as effeminate "prince" types who's only main motivation in life is finding a princess. The tumbler social justice warriors don't care about that, being mostly female, it doesn't affect them and they probably don't even notice. That doesn't mean we need more manly men in that section, it just means that certain audiences want certain things. Gender is an audience. Its weird that we pretend gender doesn't exist and how it affects us and our fiction consuming habits.
>We need more articles like this helping people realize what a "normal" comic shop could look like.
Its probably a little too late for that. The shops are folding due to digital distribution and they've somehow become even more manboy friendly as the hardcore and die-hards dictate demand. This is like saying that there aren't enough gay-friendly adult bookstores in your town. Um, sure, but the gays are just using the web like normal people. Or that the vinyl record store only has hipster stuff and not the new Kanye. Normal people are using itunes and google play.
If anything, the retail experience for things that can be gotten online easier is going to be skewed to a weird demographic. The great thing is that online and digital distribution lowers the barrier to entry and even with these low barriers, feminist comics are low on the demand side. Turns out a lot of girls just don't give a shit what activists tell them to do, which I think is wonderful. Girls can buy the girliest visual novel on steam then load up the most macho FPS game afterwards. Let them choose. Hand wringing and guilt trips are totally optional.